Asymmetric OPCOM troubles

  1. 4 weeks ago

    Hey,

    I'm fairly experienced with creating basic Occp/Invd -missions and so on, and recently I've become tempted of Asymmetric. I had no idea how much in-depth aspects it was holding with it all along. I have used it previosly in Stratis which is a fairly easy map for Alive due to having only a few objectives and them being apart from each other unlike some other maps. I thought Lithium (The FFAA map, what a masterpiece) was unindexed for civilians so Asymm wouldn't work but the situation has apparently changed now (?) so I tried;

    I'm creating a mission, with Blufor units controlling the north of the map, then I created "objectives only" TAOR in to the middle, and TAOR for the insurgents down south. Problem for me is that although I do spawn insurgents in to the civilian placements, the OPCOM orders them to move into the civilian placements they're already controlling as they spawned inside them on the south side of the map. I figured, they might be placing installations (although there's already some). But this is kind of annoying, since the only thing that seems to matter to the OPCOM is the southern area of its TAOR. The other troops are not being waypointed anywhere, they just stand still. And oddly enough I noticed plenty of the insurgents being profiles of 1 soldier guarding places, I have never seen that before.

    I have waited, with x4 speed, but the OPCOM just keeps the troops stationary at the big city of the southern area and elsewhere, maybe roaming the objectives in the big city a bit since the city has various of objectives inside it. I also tried to spawn insurgents to Mil Placements only, Civ Placements being "objective only", and they did the same thing. Focus being _only_ in the southern area of its TAOR. Doing as I described worked fantasticly in Stratis. I've tried for hours and tweaked this over and over again.

    The mission I'm trying to create is ISAF (NATO peacekeeping troops in Afganistan) being in the north, then a 'no-mans-land' where the enemy could proceed to as I'm contesting to keep the area safe, and then the Taliban stronghold in the south. Although my idea of stronghold might not be the best idea whilst working with Asymm OPCOM, the Taliban tend to behave in an Asymm OPCOM manner in real life so that's kind of a must-have for me right now. I'm just telling the scenario if you guys could come up with any alternative solution. Cheers!

  2. I have to add: As being new to the forum I have to give a big shout out to the community and especially devs behind ALIVE. Greatest mission making tool ever, and it enables me to create the large dynamic battlefields I always wanted from Arma. Plus it's super easy to learn once you learn the concept behind it.

    FANTASTIC WORK GUYS!

  3. Edited 4 weeks ago by HeroesandvillainsOS

    So wait you can verify the behavior you want on Stratis? I’d have to see it to see exactly what you’re talking about, but I will say this, Lythium has some problems. As amazing as the map is it may be best to avoid it, at least with an Asymmetric Commander..

    I just had a very well respected member of the 3CB team PM me to ask about specific issues he has only on that Lythium. It relates to civ spawns and he also confirms it goes away when using other maps.

    If you don’t mind bad FPS, try out Sangin (Arma 2 version)! Love that map! Takistan is also good, one of the very best. Reshmaan too if you don’t mind the size and layout. FATA is a good one as well.

  4. Edited 4 weeks ago by JD_Wang

    Just posted a new thread re: Lythium/JBAD buildings. M1lkm8n the JDAB dev says they use a different naming system which could be what's causing issues with ALiVE and any JBAD map.

    Would make sense considering when Diyala swapped to using CUP (which is named correctly) all of a sudden that map worked great.

    Hopefully that's the case and a workaround can be found because a working Lythium map would actually make me start making modded missions again.

  5. Oh well, if the map itself has issues and such, then I think I should stop trying. Really hoping for Lithium to turn to CUP, as Diyala did because it’s a stunning map. Although my experience is that the civs and pre-setup installations seemed to work fine, the problem was behaviour/movement of the asymmetric units.

    The behaviour I had and wanted in Stratis was that the asymmetric enemy would start at military placements through out the island (On realism stand point I wouldn’t have placed them in mil objectives initially but I just wanted to spawn them dynamically, sometimes I manually place them but it’s a killer because I know where the technicals are etc..) except for Kavala/Airport where I had Blufor present. Then they’d move into civ objectives marked as ’objectives only’ and spread the rebellion. This worked great, I observed an insurgent squad moving into a town, staying there for a little time, and proceeding away once they had reqruitment HQ established there. This kind of active movement into uncontrolled objectives didn’t happen in Lithium.

    I’ll check Sangin. Takistan is just boring, I’ve spent too much time there and the map doesn’t make me have that Afghan feel Lithium does. Reshmaan had kind of annoying ’fogginess’ like Arma 2 did, but the size of the map was great. I’ll check FATA, thanks for the tips!

    Kunduz would be AWESOME but it’s just so damn small..

  6. Kunduz is great but has major issues. IMO avoid with ALiVE. Beautiful map, but needs an update badly.

  7. @HeroesandvillainsOS Kunduz is great but has major issues. IMO avoid with ALiVE. Beautiful map, but needs an update badly.

    Seems to be the law of Alive and maps, the best ones don't work correctly!

    I tried FATA and Sangin. Compared, I'd prefer Takistan. Sangin especially had weird cartoonish feeling, hard to describe but they weren't fit for me. Could be that they're just imports from Arma II with Arma II graphics, and that's not working for me.

    Any more good tips/tricks for a middle eastern peacekeeping (asymmetric) scenario, especially for the map?

    Thank you for you help so far. I'm trying to get to Lebanon as an UN-peacekeeper myself, so naturally I'm enthusiastic about these kind of scenarios :D

  8. Understandable. I know once you see Lythium, it’s hard to use anything else. Sangin is still my all time fav due to the art design, but I can see how it’s not for everyone. I can’t really think of any other Afghan maps that are ALiVE compatible tbh.

  9. Well I downloaded bunch of maps that are Alive compatible, came across Clafghan and Aliabad. Clafghan was a bit too deserty with very low amount of rural villages and too much forest. Aliabad is actually looking neat, although it's small I'm doing a scenario for it right now. This is the best time to stop me from what I'm about to spend time on in case Aliabad isn't working neither etc.. :D

    Btw, little unrelated but is it possible to make a custom objective without a composition? I once tried placing a custom objective and leaving the composition field blank but the debug gave me no object to be seen in-game. I'm building an FOB on my own and I'd like that to be an objective.

  10. Edited 4 weeks ago by HeroesandvillainsOS

    I’ve never used Aliabad. FYI a good rule of thumb is to ALWAYS make a simple quick mission on any map you’re not sure on to see how it works before sinking the time into making a proper one.

    Custom Objectives should not spawn a composition by default anymore I don’t think. Leave the composition text field at the default place (I think it should either be blank or say “none” now) and have the HQ option set to no if you don’t want a composition.

  11. Yeah I got the custom objective right, thank you. Although I did exactly as I did before, only difference being that now I succeeded. Perhaps I F'd up something last time.

    Okay, Aliabad seems nice and does work fine with Asymmetric so thanks for your help and I suggest you to try Aliabad, it's actually a neat map!

    But but but, as I'm still quite a newbie about Asymmetric OPCOM, I'm wondering: About 45 minutes into the game, insurgents are way overpowered and have established plenty of Weapons depots and Recruitment HQs. Their profile count hasn't raised not even by one (Shouldn't it?). Plenty of civilians with ...get_weapons according to debug and as I ghost/teleported near them to do some debugging of my own most of them are wearing suicide vests. So when do/should they turn into opfor units, or should they get weapons somehow? The faction I'm using is LOP_AM_OPF = Project OPFOR's Middle Eastern Militia. Inside the weapon depots there are two supply boxes with explosives and detonators etc.

  12. Edited 4 weeks ago by HeroesandvillainsOS

    Ok so I think there’s a bit of misunderstanding on how ALiVE Insurgency works going on here. Basically, when a Commander is set to an Asymmetric Commander, he won’t repopulate his loses with traditional air dropped units, he “recruits them” from the civilian populace.

    In practice, this IS NOT an armed civ (although that can actually occur - this is what “civilian hostility” is and is a separate feature of ALiVE Insurgency), but a freshly spawned enemy infantry combatant. They will look like the insurgent faction, in your case a LOP_AM_OPF, because that’s exactly the units that are going to spawn once “recruited.”

    Behind the scenes there is a formula. Basically, and it’s especially noticeable at first, the Asymmetric Commander will place a priority on creating Installation HQ’s. These come in the form of IED factories, Weapons Depots, and Civ Recruitment HQ’s - of which only the latter impacts the insurgent growth/replenishment (the former I believe are where the hostile civilians will get armed from).

    Randomly, in a time less than once per hour, the Asymmetric Commander will have a percent chance at successfully recruiting new fighters from Civ Recruitment HQ’s. These attempts can also fail. The more Civ Recruitment HQ’s there are, the more chances they’ll have at getting new fighters. Your job is to obviously stop this by disabling or destroying their Recruitment HQ’s. No Civ Recruitment HQ’s = no new fighters.

    Lots of factors determine how fast or slow they can grow; in fact, Max Civ’s to recruit and Max Simultaneous Objectives in the Commander module directly impact this, as well as the actual presence of civilians. No civs = no insurgent growth.

  13. 3 weeks ago

    I got the basic understanding that Asymmetric OPCOM uses civilians to gain manpower etc, not the traditional Military Logistics module, but the deeper mechanism of that was a question mark for me.

    Right now I have civilians set at "high", simultaneous objectives set at default value 10 and insurgents start with 30 profiles, setting up HQ's and depots quickly and proceeding freely without engagement. So things are running normally if no OPFOR profiles are being made within an hour? I was totally unaware that it takes that 'long' to actually finish the recruiting process. So if they do manage to recruit civilians, they'll spawn eventually as a new OPFOR group/profile?

    And thanks for describing the "civilian hostility". I think that's what explains why 10 mins into my Lythium scenario in a non-insurgent area a civilian shot me from behind with a gun from vanilla ARMA :D

    And also, I got the IED module synced to the Asymmetric OPCOM. So is it IED module making civilians wear those suicide vests?

  14. Yes correct, new/recruited insurgents will spawn as your Asymmetric faction, not as the civilian class. If I was you I’d use the ALiVE menu to reveal “OPCOM Installations” and make sure there are Civ Recruitment HQ’s. Then after I’d say over the course of 2 hours, periodically check the profile numbers to make sure once they go down, they go up insome way.

    You can run this “Profile Counter” code posted here in the escap menu debug console to count profiles: http://alivemod.com/wiki/index.php/Script_Snippets#Profile_Counter

    If it never increases, ever (so for example, let’s say they have 40 profiles at the start and then go down to 38, at some point it should at least go to 39 if things are “working”), something is wrong.

    Yes the IED module will control suicide bombers. There may be other reason they are coded to wear these vests if I recall (so maybe you’ll see them even without the module? One of the lead devs would have to chime in) but for all intents and purposes that is correct, suicide bomber behavior is tied to the IED module.

  15. I do use the Alive-menu function to reveal OPCOM installations and the profile counter aswell, they're quite essential for proper debugging. Aliabad mission is working great now, although I'm going to work on Takistan because it's much larger, Aliabad's downside is how tiny it is, sadly.. I also tried Spyder's modules for the first time only to find out it's absolutely stunning. The ability to talk to civilians makes depth into these scenarios.

    Thank you very much for taking the time to answer, you've been a great help at understanding Alive a bit better!

    Although there's one thing I'm wondering. I haven't had any persistent scenarios, ever. I've played with couple of friends and as we have quit the game we've just started the scenario again. I'm thinking having a save game might make things a bit more interesting, but I've got no idea how to do so and I actually just came across to this ability not too long ago..

    I know I should change some of the modules to persistent, is that correct? And how to actually save the game and then open the saved game? We're playing on a local server hosted by me via Hamachi (It does work well actually)

  16. Edited 3 weeks ago by HeroesandvillainsOS

    @Hedberg I do use the Alive-menu function to reveal OPCOM installations and the profile counter aswell, they're quite essential for proper debugging. Aliabad mission is working great now, although I'm going to work on Takistan because it's much larger, Aliabad's downside is how tiny it is, sadly.. I also tried Spyder's modules for the first time only to find out it's absolutely stunning. The ability to talk to civilians makes depth into these scenarios.

    Yeah agreed his mod is a must. Though beware the question that reveals insurgent HQ’s is broken so you’ll still want to check the vanilla scroll wheel to see if “gather intel” is available.

    Thank you very much for taking the time to answer, you've been a great help at understanding Alive a bit better!

    No problem. :)

    Although there's one thing I'm wondering. I haven't had any persistent scenarios, ever. I've played with couple of friends and as we have quit the game we've just started the scenario again. I'm thinking having a save game might make things a bit more interesting, but I've got no idea how to do so and I actually just came across to this ability not too long ago..

    I know I should change some of the modules to persistent, is that correct? And how to actually save the game and then open the saved game? We're playing on a local server hosted by me via Hamachi (It does work well actually)

    I’ve never used a dedicated server to save and load progress, only a local host LAN, but it should work the same. Place the Data and Player Data modules. Set saving to “local” instead of “cloud” and put the persistent options to “yes” everywhere that asks (read the hints carefully because for some I think “no” might be the option to save your data lol).

    Then open every single module, and look carefully for any persistent yes/no options and put them to yes. Look at them all carefully.

    When in-game, with you as the logged in Admin, when done for the night AND shutting the server down, click “server save and exit” in the esc menu. When the mission is started again, your data will be loaded automatically as long as the mission.pbo name hasn’t changed (your mission state is saved to the server profile).

    Also, make sure if this sever runs 24/7 (which you’d want to click “player exit” in the esc menu instead when you log off, this won’t force the mission to shut down like “server save and exit” will), to open the ALiVE Required module (pretty sure it’s this one, double check), and make sure to select the option to pause the mission when no players are detected in the server. If you don’t do this, the mission will still be running when no humans are on and the insurgents will take over the whole map while you’re gone lol.

  17. I'll do that. Thanks for all of your replies so far!

    Now my Takistan scenario is almost ready to rock n' roll (spend three hours building a base, spend 10 minutes setting up the Alive modules, haha) but I'm having a hard time fine-adjusting things. I've got the same kind of Afghan insurgency going on with ANA/ANP being the Blufor and me being a Swedish ISAF force in the area.

    Everything else looks alright, but the Blufor is the question mark for me. I decided that Blufor should be kind of passive, more likely to just to hold on for the area they already have, so I set their readiness to 50% for mils and 25% for civs. I once read somewhere that a good idea is to let Blufor only know about the larger/bigger/more important civ objectives. This is to maintain that you're the first to patrol an area and not to be 1km behind of aggressive Blufor forces all the time. Bad thing though is that the presets for object filters kind of won't let me do that. I mean it would, but I'd have to include tiny objectives which makes so many little objectives. And that doesn't bother me anyway else than I figured that having five objectives in a 500 meter long road might reduce the progression of Opfor dramatically and maybe over-build installations? Or are the quantity of installations even objective related, don't know?

    But I look upon you as kind of a professional here, don't know whether you're part of the Alive-team itself or not, but I'd like to hear your advice on this. You probably get the idea of what kind of scenario I'm dreaming in my head right now. What do you do like to do with the Blufor in an Asymm mission?

    Some questions which would also get me through my problem here: If I'd set two civilian objectives in one TAOR, one having "ignore tiny" and the other having "ignore small + medium", then there'd be duplicates of objectives larger than medium. Is this OK, do they actually make duplicate objectives, can I use them even though the same objective is registered twice, does it lower performance? Btw. The filtering is kind of silly, since I figure "medium + small_er_" would mean medium, small and tiny. So "Ignore small (no -er here) + medium" means tiny objectives are still registered? Although I suspect it's a gramattical error and it should read "smaller" thus tiny objectives would not be registered.

  18. Edited 3 weeks ago by HeroesandvillainsOS

    @Hedberg Everything else looks alright, but the Blufor is the question mark for me. I decided that Blufor should be kind of passive, more likely to just to hold on for the area they already have, so I set their readiness to 50% for mils and 25% for civs. I once read somewhere that a good idea is to let Blufor only know about the larger/bigger/more important civ objectives. This is to maintain that you're the first to patrol an area and not to be 1km behind of aggressive Blufor forces all the time. Bad thing though is that the presets for object filters kind of won't let me do that. I mean it would, but I'd have to include tiny objectives which makes so many little objectives. And that doesn't bother me anyway else than I figured that having five objectives in a 500 meter long road might reduce the progression of Opfor dramatically and maybe over-build installations? Or are the quantity of installations even objective related, don't know?

    One way I usually like to keep a decent amount of friendlies but limit their overall involvement is to limit them to Military Objectives only. That way I can do the bulk of the fighting over Civilian Objectives, and call in/arrange help when I need it.

    In some cases, only using BLU Mil Objectives only isn’t quite enough, so I’ll add a Civ Objective module for BLU too and increase the filtering as much as possible. If you decide to do that, but can’t due to not having any objectives within the marker area, either live with it or you can increase the marker size so an objective is detected.

    But I look upon you as kind of a professional here, don't know whether you're part of the Alive-team itself or not, but I'd like to hear your advice on this.

    Lol my official title I guess is “contributor” which Tupolov was extremely nice bestowing upon me. He also knighted me a moderator here. :) I’ve made some official missions (I think we included those lol can’t recall), I index maps, do other small stuff, and bitch and moan a lot in the dev Slack about shit not working and how Spyder is a ruthless cute animal slayer IRL ;)

    You probably get the idea of what kind of scenario I'm dreaming in my head right now. What do you do like to do with the Blufor in an Asymm mission?

    If possible I prefer to limit them to Mil Obj’s only and call in help when needed. This is not always possible though. Custom objectives are your friend as well if you need to sprinkle in a few additional objectives.

    Some questions which would also get me through my problem here: If I'd set two civilian objectives in one TAOR, one having "ignore tiny" and the other having "ignore small + medium", then there'd be duplicates of objectives larger than medium. Is this OK, do they actually make duplicate objectives, can I use them even though the same objective is registered twice, does it lower performance?

    This is not advised. You can use multiple identical modules for different areas/markers but don’t overlap.

    Btw. The filtering is kind of silly, since I figure "medium + small_er_" would mean medium, small and tiny. So "Ignore small (no -er here) + medium" means tiny objectives are still registered? Although I suspect it's a gramattical error and it should read "smaller" thus tiny objectives would not be registered.

    No pretty sure it does exactly what it says. Ignore small and medium *should only filter out small and medium, but still spawn tiny and large objectives.

    If you want to see examples of insurgencies I’ve made, I have a bunch on Steam. Best example is either Inshallah (Takistan) or Battle of Sangin (A2 Sangin).

    AuTigerGrad (he is also a “contributor”) makes excellent missions too. His name is AuburnAlumni on Steam.

    Just keep in mind our missions aren’t the “right” way to do anything. They are just proper made examples of specific ways. Other approaches may work better for you.

  19. Thanks for all the support and advices, they're indeed very helpful :) I'll definetly check your scenarios asap!

    I hate that at least in Takistan keeping civ objectives at "ignore tiny" some of the rural villages that I'd like to get recognized are not recognized but if I don't filter they don't advance as fast as I'd like them to.. Of course that could be set according my wishes with custom objectives though.

    Just one more: I have 57 Opfor and 33 Blufor units at start. Is that even a near an okay amount, or should the Blufor exceed Opfor? Secondly, do you sync Blufor to LOGCOM or not for reinforcements?

  20. Edited 3 weeks ago by HeroesandvillainsOS

    @Hedberg Thanks for all the support and advices, they're indeed very helpful :) I'll definetly check your scenarios asap!

    I hate that at least in Takistan keeping civ objectives at "ignore tiny" some of the rural villages that I'd like to get recognized are not recognized but if I don't filter they don't advance as fast as I'd like them to.. Of course that could be set according my wishes with custom objectives though.

    Just one more: I have 57 Opfor and 33 Blufor units at start. Is that even a near an okay amount, or should the Blufor exceed Opfor? Secondly, do you sync Blufor to LOGCOM or not for reinforcements?

    That sounds like a great number of starting profiles for each side, depending on how fast OPFOR grows. I’d be very satisfied with that to start playing and testing.

    Yes I sync the Military Logistics module to the BLUFOR/non-Insurgent Commander module. That’s the only way to get battle casualty replacements and I like my missions personally to last a really long time.

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