In my opinion...I would go to the individual unit numbers in each module (infanty, armored, motorized, etc.) and do it that way. For example....Have the Opfor Civilian Obj Module spawn 5 Infantry groups, 2 motorized, and that's it. That way, you still have your randomness of where they are, but you are also absolutely certain of the numbers to start, rather than launch the game and have 100 Taliban groups all over the valley. That's my .02.
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8 years ago
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
@AUTigerGrad In my opinion...I would go to the individual unit numbers in each module (infanty, armored, motorized, etc.) and do it that way. For example....Have the Opfor Civilian Obj Module spawn 5 Infantry groups, 2 motorized, and that's it. That way, you still have your randomness of where they are, but you are also absolutely certain of the numbers to start, rather than launch the game and have 100 Taliban groups all over the valley. That's my .02.
That sounds like the best of both worlds! Should I do the same with BLUFOR? Maybe 3 infantry only in the Mil module and 3 infantry only in the Civ module? Vehicles may be overkill for BLUFOR. Helicopters are WAY overkill. Had to remove those yesterday.
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You could...but I set Blufor to 60 and it seemed to be the right amount. Nothing too crazy. Just have Blufor geared toward light infantry so you don't have a ton of M1 tanks and Bradleys rolling all over FATA. I'm sticking with Humvees and MRAPs myself. I'm also placing one Blufor Apache down to let the AI use as it will. I'm not using CAS through ALiVE because I want to keep the combat "mano e mano" and not just call in my CAS to destroy at will.
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Just a hunch, but I think you may be misunderstanding how the modules work... I know you'll be aware of most of this, but it's worth going to basics just to make sure you have a complete understanding. Sorry if it's too basic! Also, please do correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. This is just my understanding, but it seems to yield the results I'm after.
Where you physically place the military placement modules generally makes very little difference unless it's a custom objective. The only real difference it can make is placing a HQ near the module if the module is set to do that. Same goes for adding multiple overlapping Military Placement modules. Unlike the CQB and civilian population modules, they each identify the same things and layering won't make them more efficient or pick up any more objectives. Filters control that. The only reason to have multiple overlapping placement modules is to create different weightings of units (for instance, one for spawning armoured groups in only the large objectives, another for spawning infantry everywhere), or trying to spawn numbers that don't fit with the standard settings (i.e. 300 would take two Civ - 1 x 100 + 1 x 200).
The best way to see this in action is using each of the modules in debug mode. A civilian placement will identify set civilian locations as objectives within the specified TOAR that aren't blacklisted. If there is no defined TAOR, it will set all civilian locations as objectives across the whole map. Obviously, filtering will change the size of the civilian location that gets set as an objective but you get the idea. Same goes for military placement module. I imagine you probably already know this! But worth reiterating that it doesn't really matter where the module is physically placed.
Syncing the OPCOM tells the AI commander to attack the objectives identified by the placement module. If you set the module to "Place Units", then units will be placed at all the objectives identified by the placement module (providing there are enough units to do that) and OPCOM will try to use those units to hold the objectives, regardless of where that module has actually been placed on the map. You could even put it way off the map and it will still work pretty much identically. If it is "Objectives Only", then no units will be placed, but OPCOM will try to take those objectives using other available units, according to their priority.
Think of it this way. These modules essentially define what the OPCOM can "see". If there are no placement modules synced to an OPCOM, that OPCOM is essentially blind and won't try to take any objectives, no matter how many units it has at its disposal. The settings within the placement modules define how many objectives are "revealed" to OPCOM by the module. If there are no filters on the synced module, all objectives of whichever type (civilian or military) will be revealed to OPCOM, and OPCOM will prioritise those objectives based on their individual value, rather than the module location. Having multiple placement modules won't change this value either, or the amount of objectives revealed.
Thus, if the OPCOM is synced to a military placement module but not a civilian one, it will not "see" civilian objectives, and vice versa. Or if the OPCOM is synced to a filtered placement module, it will not "see" the smaller objectives and will totally ignore them, no matter what happens during the battle.
So think of these things less as placement modules, but more as objective generators for synced OPCOMs, with the ability to scatter units in and around those objectives. This way, you can get one OPCOM to see all the civilian objectives and only large military ones, while the opposing OPCOM sees all military objectives, but only large civilian ones. So both have safe havens effectively, which works well for asymmetric.
The reason your BLUFOR are attacking what seem like OPFOR objectives is probably because the Civ Placement module you've synced them to has identified the main urban area as an objective, even though it is on the edge of it, and that this overlaps with what the OPFOR Mil Civ Placement has identified as an objective. So both are attacking the same objective because of their overlapping Mil Civ Placement modules without knowing anything about the other side. Does that make any sense? You can test this using debug mode.
With FATA, I'd definitely agree with @AUTigerGrad and say use a military placement module for BLUFOR. In my mission, the BLUFOR military placement module TAOR is basically the areas blacklisted by the OPFOR military placement (which is used for random camps). Also bear in mind that the military placement modules will only identify the southernmost base (and a few of the other FOBs / military installations) if you set the military placement module to "No Filter".
Hope this was useful in some way!
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
Yes. Very helpful! There's a wealth of knowledge in this thread. :) I guess what threw me off about the physical location of the modules was that ALiVE requires civ modules to be placed on civ objects and mil modules to be placed on mil objects. I guess in that way I thought it effected where units spawned too so I really appreciate you clearing that up. That makes perfect sense. I just wrote up a working mission on a notepad at my work trying to combine the advice from both you and Autigergrad. LOL! It works on paper at least!
Anyway, sort of OT but considering all three of us are working on FATA, is Spyder's Ambience module working for you at all? When I sync it to Game Logic (which needs to be done on FATA) nothing happens. I miss my goats and civs driving terribly. :)
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
Ok. This is more of a note to for me to reference later, but here's a mix-mash of both of your shared philosophies here:
Overall goals:
- Limit BLUFOR to around 100 units
- Limit OPFOR to around 60 units
- No CAS support but a manually placed chopper near a base for BLUFOR to use if needed
BLUFOR:
- Mil Objective 60 units, whitelisted to OPFOR's Mil Objective Random camps areas. Still not sure what effect "No filter" could have.
- Civ Objective 30 units, whitelisted to 3 of the largest towns
OPFOR:
- Civ Objective 30 units. Or, Autigergrad's 5 infantry, 2 vehicles override. Not sure yet.
- Custom Objective in northern most city with some units, no composition, to simulate a northern most hotbed.
- Military Objective 30 units. High amount of camps. Blacklisted/Whitelisted to only remote camp areas.
- Custom Objective. No units. Place low priority modules over BLUFOR base areas in an effort to make OPFOR eventually attack these areas. Place as many as needed.
- Cutom Objective. Place several (and include some units/installations, or maybe just objectives instead?) in the areas near the city that OPFOR can't populate like they normally would due to lack of Mil/Civ objects.
Sound decent?
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FYI, if you run debug you'll realize that FATA has several smaller villages that ALiVE doesn't recognize for Mil or Civ objectives...mainly in the middle of the map to the right side of the major city on the map. I placed about 5 or 6 Custom objectives on those locales and synced them (all Civ) to the Opfor commander to let him know to place units and installations in those areas at some point.
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@AUTigerGrad FYI, if you run debug you'll realize that FATA has several smaller villages that ALiVE doesn't recognize for Mil or Civ objectives...mainly in the middle of the map to the right side of the major city on the map. I placed about 5 or 6 Custom objectives on those locales and synced them (all Civ) to the Opfor commander to let him know to place units and installations in those areas at some point.
Good call. I think the far left side of the city is sans mil/civ objects too. I really appreciate the help. Seems like I have a pretty solid game plan thanks to you guys. You both saved me several hours of trial and error.
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
So I just implemented all the suggested changes. Thanks guys. The mission is starting to feel right. Three quick questions:
1. So I removed my CAS module and replaced it with an empty Wildcat. Are my Mil BLUFOR spawns actually smart enough to use it on their own?
2. I'm finding that if I have my reinforcements set to anything other than infantry only, my side still destroys the OPFOR in the early going. In the main city at least. What I don't get is I get para-dropped reinforcements into the main city around 10 minutes after mission start. Not sure why. Even with just infantry and motorized this feels like overkill. Is infantry only a good way to approach this mission for reinforcements? This sort of leads back to question one. I like the idea of infantry only. But they have to be smart enough to use the tools (empty vehicles) I leave at my base (such as MRAPS and choppers, etc).
3. Are either of you able to get Spyder's Ambience module working on FATA at all?
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1. No, use a manned Wildcat! OPCOM won't use empty vehicles. Also, they won't use them if they aren't virtualised.
2. You could try setting reinforcements to seldom if they are overpowering OPFOR too quickly. Also, reinforcements will likely drop at the largest objective unless you set the module to static and place it somewhere else (like over the southern base or off out in the wilderness). So maybe stick the logistics module in the wilderness south of the southern FOB, so it looks like reinforcements are patrolling in?
If BLUFOR is clearing out the main city, it's probably because you have them synced to the civilian objective set over the main city and because of the size of it, it'll register as a high priority objective, so they will throw a lot of weight at it. If you want that main urban area to be hostile, don't sync BLUFOR to any civ mil placement modules that include it. If you still want BLUFOR to try, but not try as hard, sync BLUFOR OPCOM to a custom objective with a lower priority over the urban areas.
One issue here is that virtualised units tend to wipe each other out fairly quickly. It might take a side less than a minute to clear a whole town in the virtualised world, whereas it might take 30 minutes + if the units are actually spawned and fighting. As long as your insurgents are building up their strength elsewhere, I wouldn't worry too much about the main town. They should be breeding like bunnies all over the place and might do better avoiding the big towns initially.
3. Yeah it's fine for me! It works only on the large urban areas but that works out for me quite well. I did see goats patrolling in a wedge formation recently though, think they must have evolved. It's the stuff of nightmares.
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The mystical goat wedge? I thought it was just a myth..
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@HeroesandvillainsOS On reinforcements coming in rapidly...keep in mind...if you set the Blufor forces with a very small starting number (Platoon 60, 30, etc.) and you have more objectives at the start of the mission than you do troops..the AI will immediately start pouring reinforcements into the area to make sure that it has enough troops to get to all of the objectives. This happened to me on Kunduz on a mission I made. I had Civ Modules with Objectives only and I had placed a small Platoon 30 size Blufor occupying force synced to a Military Logistics module for reinforcements. Within 2 minutes of starting the mission...it looked like a scene out of "A Bridge Too Far".....Blufor reinforcments parachuting in from EVERYWHERE. I summized that it was the Blufor AI commander realizing that he didn't have enough starting troops to cover all objectives so he immediately called in for reinforcements.
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@AUTigerGrad @HeroesandvillainsOS On reinforcements coming in rapidly...keep in mind...if you set the Blufor forces with a very small starting number (Platoon 60, 30, etc.) and you have more objectives at the start of the mission than you do troops..the AI will immediately start pouring reinforcements into the area to make sure that it has enough troops to get to all of the objectives. This happened to me on Kunduz on a mission I made. I had Civ Modules with Objectives only and I had placed a small Platoon 30 size Blufor occupying force synced to a Military Logistics module for reinforcements. Within 2 minutes of starting the mission...it looked like a scene out of "A Bridge Too Far".....Blufor reinforcments parachuting in from EVERYWHERE. I summized that it was the Blufor AI commander realizing that he didn't have enough starting troops to cover all objectives so he immediately called in for reinforcements.
Haha! LOL. Too funny. :)
What did you do on Kunduz to keep initial placement low but not have it 'raining men' 3 seconds after the mission started?
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The commander will never call in more troops than it started with (if you start with 60,it won't exceed 60), or at least it shouldn't.
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@incontinenetia, thanks so much buddy! I can't believe how much I've learned just chatting with you guys! My mission should be relatively feature complete here soon and I can't thank you all enough.
Regarding FATA and ambience, when you get a sec, could you check out my question here for how you got it working? https://forums.bistudio.com/topic/186769-spyder-addons/page-7#entry2978551
Placing the ambience module unsynced doesn't work on this map (from what I can tell) and syncing to Game Logic isn't working either for me.
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
@SpyderBlack723 The commander will never call in more troops than it started with (if you start with 60,it won't exceed 60), or at least it shouldn't.
Oh ok then. I'll just leave it be then. I have Platoon 30 for civ obj and Platoon 60 for mil obj. I'm happy with that balance (OPFOR is limited to 30/30 with a crap tons of civs, three placement modules, to recruit).
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@SpyderBlack723 The commander will never call in more troops than it started with (if you start with 60,it won't exceed 60), or at least it shouldn't.
Nevermind, I know what I did in that mission. I had set the initial starting group at 60...BUT....I had it at objectives only and had manually placed down a few squads to start. So I guess since I did that...the AI immediately got the troops up with reinforcements to get to the 60 level?
I'm assuming that is what occurred..otherwise...we must have had the worst Blufor massacre in ARMA history in the initial 3 minutes of fighting. lol
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
@SpyderBlack723 The mystical goat wedge? I thought it was just a myth..
Good to know the 5 daily prayers I make with the CTP script are paying off. ;)
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
Boy. I've been balancing a mission on FATA for what feels like forever now. :) It's been fun and I love the map but it hasn't been an easy task. Some updates:
I'm beginning to feel like having a BLUFOR civ obj module in any form is just overkill. Even with a small initial force (Platoon 30), they seem to constantly pepper the three large cities and regardless of initial OPFOR strength, the map feels just too barren for the first two or so hours from mission start (BLUFOR civ obj units just wiped the floor clean in the early going) . It probably doesn't help matters that my base in on the south east edge, making the map feel even more empty because the closest outskirts village which my civ Platoon isn't focused on (where the insurgency tends to start) is several (empty) kilometers away.
What I'm thinking of doing now is using a BLUFOR mil obj module instead (I have one now, but I only allow it 15 units), increasing the platoon size, and instead having them focus on the random camps in the hills, with a custom obj module in the cities so they can occasionally patrol the urban areas too. Without taking this approach, I just don't see any epic CQB battles happening in the larger cities at all.
For OPFOR, I've noticed with anything less than around 100 inital units, it's still far too easy to travel around without much resistance. But once you hit 100+, beware! No transport or CAS chopper is safe and every moment in the air is a nerve wracking one thanks to CAF RPG guys. I'm getting shot down a lot now, especially if I push my luck and try to fly to deep within the towns.
I'm still finding it cumbersome getting any OPFOR patrols in the valleys between the villages outside the main cities. The countryside has random camps (which is great) but the walk from the city to the nearby villages on the right side of the cities is still kind of a snooze-fest.
Anyway, right now I'm thinking of having BLUFOR limited to 60 units (mil obj only), with their focus on the OPFOR camps. The playable units consist of two squads; a 10 man infantry team doing mostly recon and a 7 man sniper team which will be used for C2ISTAR and installation breaching.
OPFOR currently has 130 units, 100 being civ and 30 being mil set only to spawn random camps. I'd still love to get some feedback from FATA mission makers but realize this thread is a little old now. This is a tough map to balance and makes palaces like Reshmaan and Takistan with their symmetry and small hills seem like a mission making breeze by comparison.
EDIT: I'm not discounting this approach may be overkill and *could* set me at an unrecoverable disadvantage after 5-6 hours as the insurgency grows. It's just the first 2 hours are so slow and empty I don't see how I can share this mission with anyone and expect them to enjoy themselves unless I take an approach like this. Definitely open to ideas though! Lots of good ones already in here. I just need to polish this up a bit.
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Edited 8 years ago by HeroesandvillainsOS
Probably talking to myself right now :) but it's interesting how simply adjusting the priorities of BLUFOR changes the landscape, as Autigergrad mentioned yesterday. Every time I bump up the objective priority for my mil/civ objective modules, the more open, interesting and dangerous the battlefield becomes.
For instance, let's say you limit OPFOR to 100 units and BLUFOR to 60. If BLUFOR is told not to ignore any objectives and is just give carte blanche, when BLUFOR units are generally more capable than OPFOR by default, BLUFOR can still run the table even with less forces than OPFOR because BLUFOR will spawn everywhere and attack hard and with authority..
Now, if you use the same number of units on both sides, but force BLUFOR to only focus on high priority objectives, an Assymetic OPFOR can then suddenly turn the tide and spread out the battlefield and gain forces like breeding bunnies because they'll largely go uncontested in the small priorities areas on the map.
It's interesting how this one change can drastically change mission balance.
Doing this (limiting BLUFOR priorities to only the most important objectives), has allowed me to increase my in total force pool, but maintain mission balance. Whereas with the same amount of troops, if BLUFOR is allowed to go wherever they please (attack small objectives), they'd easily massacre OPFOR within moments of mission start.
Cool stuff. I think I've been neglecting this feature a bit. I've always limited my side, but never so forcefully. I like what I see. OPFOR will occasionally just roam the hills and valleys and can pop up anywhere when balanced like this (as insurgent forces should). Makes the battlefield a bit more interesting and dangerous to roam around in.
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